This Old Toilet®
ToiletTankLids.com & ThisOldToilet.com
EXPERT TOILET PARTS REPLACEMENT SERVICE
Rare Parts and Components For Old, Obsolete, Discontinued, No Longer Manufactured Toilets
Toilet Tank Lids, Covers,
Tops ~ Toilet Tanks ~ Toilet Bowls ~ Toilet Seats ~ Toilet Bolt Caps
Main Lids Page ~ Lids Available In Stock ~ Identify Your Toilet ~ Cost of a New Toilet ~ Tips & Suggestions
? ? ? TANK LID FREQUENTLY ANSWERED QUESTIONS: ? ? ?
That's right.... People ask me lots of questions about toilet tank lids! ...Can you believe it?
Click on a topic link below:
How much is the shipping charge?
A: The prices shown include carton, packing, handling, shipping and insurance. (Our prices include everything!)
it cost less to replace the whole toilet?
A: Well, you may pay less for some toilets at the store, but the entire job may cost you more. For details, Click Here. "It's not just what you pay, it's what it costs you."
I get a lid cheaper at a salvage yard?
A: Yes, you could. ...If there is one (salvage yard) in your area; if you are willing to do the work; and if you are lucky enough to find the right one. But salvage yards and plumber shops tend to be dirty heaps of unorganized goods. They don't even know what they have. You're on your own to "pick-your-part." Caution: When rummaging through salvage yards, be very careful of broken or chipped tank lids. The edges are sharp like broken glass and can cut you badly. Additional caution: During the warm season, beware of spiders and wasps living under lids stored outdoors.
are the lids so expensive?
A: The value of our price is in our service. We are not a self-service, pick-your-own-part junk yard. We are salvage specialists and toilet experts. Our stock is completely sorted, organized, cataloged, and managed. Our service provides expertise in identifying the right lid for your toilet and delivering it safely to your home. In order to have the one you need, we carry one thousand in stock. This spans 500 different models and colors across 85 brands going back 95 years. Our home delivery service provides great convenience. "We'll wrap it, pack it, and drive it to your doorstep. So, why is an old, used lid so expensive? ...Because we're worth it!
A: Handling, handling, handling... and storage. Think of it this way: The lids are FREE! ...But there is a charge for the overhead to provide the service plus a markup. This overhead starts with our travel to find the lids. Then they are loaded and driven back to our facility. Next is unloading, identification, marking, sorting, storing, and cataloging. (One-by-one.) (...And don't break 'em!) Most lids are stored for years. Some may be stored for ever? We have ten thousand pounds (five tons) of toilet tank lids! ...It ain't easy. Next, this website is provided and maintained. When an order is placed, the lid is pulled from stock, washed, inspected, wrapped, packed, shipped, insured, and driven to your doorstep. When the process is all over, that ten pound slippery fragile lid has been handled ten to twelve times! ...It's quite a journey from the bottom of a pile, in the back corner of a plumber's shed, to your doorstep.
A:The toilet tank lids we carry are no longer available from manufacturer production in unlimited quantities. With limited supply from salvage, and demand often exceeding supply, we must charge a higher price on some items in order to make sufficient profit to sustain this service.
A:Sometimes we have to buy a whole toilet just to get the tank lid.
A: Remember, our prices include inner and outer carton, packing, handling, shipping and insurance. Did you know that UPS charges these extra fees?: $1.45 fuel surcharge, $2.45 for residential delivery, $3.00 for "special zip codes" such as very rural area or inner-city high-rise, and $1.80 for insurance.
do some lids cost more than others?
A: Supply and demand. (Basic economics.) Most of the lids we have are no longer manufactured. Some have not been made for over 75 years. Some that we have sold have never been found again. Degree of rarity determines prices. Old and colored are the most rare.
A: Size and weight can also affect the price since our price includes packing and shipping.
A: Some of our tank lids are not expensive. Indeed we offer the lowest price tank lid on the Web at $47.95, delivered.
Q: Why is the price cheaper on the website versus the telephone?
A: 1) The fee charged by our service provider is lower for online payments because the risk of fraud is lower. 2) "Seller Protection" benefits apply to online payments, phone payments are "ineligible." 3) The Buy Now button on our website prepares an order description and price automatically, phone orders must be prepared manually. 4) Payment data can be entered directly by the buyer on web orders, but on phone orders it must be dictated by the buyer, heard clearly by the seller and typed accurately by the seller. (These letters sound alike in many telephone environments: B, C, D, P, T - F, S - M, N.) Here are the most difficult examples we encounter: Cell phone from car with road/wind noise. English is a second language. Dog barking in background. Baby crying near caller. Children screaming near caller. Music, radio or TV behind caller. Construction noise near caller. Speaker phone echo. Speed talkers. Weak connection from cordless or cell phone. Spouse in background coaching caller. Save $10.00 on web orders.
you take credit cards?
A: Yes. Click the Buy Now button next to the item you want to order. This will transfer you to PayPal, the industry leader in secure online payment service. You can then use your PayPal account or Visa, MasterCard, Discover.
Q: What if I don't have a PayPal account ?
A: Click the Buy Now button anyway. On the right side look for: "Don't have a PayPal account?" Click on the triangle to open a credit card payment window.
I pay by check?
A: Yes. To Pay By Check, Click Here
you ship C.O.D.?
A: Yes. If paying by check, some customers prefer this rather than sending a check with the order. However, there is a $8.50 extra fee. (This is the amount charged by UPS for that service.) Add $8.50 to payment amount and specify "Ship C.O.D." on your order.
Identification & Specification:
do you measure the dimensions of a lid?
A: We measure the greatest outside dimensions of the length and width of the bottom of the lid. That is, turn the lid upside-down and measure side-to-side and front-to-back at the greatest points. (Read our Handling Tips first.) (Be careful of broken edges. They are sharp and can cut you.) Variances of 1/8 to1/4 inch are common because of manufacturing tolerances and depending on where the measurement is taken relative to radius's and edges. Variances of 3/8 or 1/2 inch are substantial and should be discussed before ordering. Measurements are provided as a general reference for confirming a model match. Actual selection is by brand and number. Video
Q: Do you have a color chart online?
A: We link to this one, but it is not reliable for distinguishing close shades due to variances in computer video cards and monitor variances such as pixels, contrast, brightness and resolution.
can I tell what the name of my color is?
A: This is difficult. But here's a way to get started: Church toilets seats in Sheboygan Falls Wisconsin makes toilet seats for many of the toilet manufacturers of today and yesterday. Go to their web site and study their color chart.
A: The names in our descriptions are colored to give an approximation of the color. But the surest thing to do is send us a color sample with your order.
Q: Do any of the numbers inside my toilet indicate the color name ?
Q: I can't tell if my color is White or Bone*. What should I do?
A: If your kitchen has white appliances, compare to those.
A: White paper test: Compare by holding a piece of white paper or an envelope next to your toilet. If your toilet is White, the paper will match. If your toilet is Almond, Bone, Natural, etc., you'll see a difference.
A: Or take a sample from your toilet to a plumbing store that displays fixtures and compare to those. (Home Depot, Lowe's, etc. have displays.) If there are no bone* displays in the fixture area, go to the toilet seat section. When viewed separately it is difficult to distinguish white and bone*. When held next to each other it is easy to tell the difference.
* There are many "off-whites" - American Standard Warm White (1993), Linen (1997) & Bone (1969); Kohler Almond (1981) & Biscuit (1993); Eljer Natural. Toilets in the 1950s and earlier were often made in a duller, grayer shade of white, which compared to later white production may seem to be "off-white". But there was no such color name and there was only one white.
(You might be color blind.) Article - WikipediA, Article - Color blindness More Prevalent Among Males
is the condition of the lids?
A: The lids are old, used, and salvaged but have no flaws or damage unless marked as such. Some lids are B-Grades or damaged. These lids are often reduced in price and may be a value for you depending on the location of the flaw relative to its view in your bathroom. These items are distinguished with a Red Tag price, such as $60. (Note: Deformities, irregularities, chips, cracks, etc on the bottom or rear of the lid do not constitute a flaw.)
B-Grades: (Minor manufacturing defects.)
Blemish (Blem) - A slight imperfection or irregularity in the glazed surface.
Bald Spot - An area where the glazed finish did not cover the china.
Pin-hole - A small hole in the glazed surface the size of a pin-prick or a pencil tip. A pockmark.
Speck - A dust speck fired into the glazed surface. Smaller than a flake, 1/16".
(These were released from the manufacturer as A Grade, but we reclass them to B Grade.)
Flake - A dust flake fired into the glazed surface. Bigger than a speck, 1/8".
Damaged: (From use or handling.)
Abrasion - A dull spot in the glazed surface. Shallower and broader than a scratch. The result of rubbing.
Scratch - A scratch in the glazed surface.
Hairline Crack - A faint crack in the surface. It looks like a piece of hair.
Crack - Larger/deeper than a hair-line crack. Usually the result of an impact.
Nick - A small, shallow damage in the glazed surface. Smaller than a chip.
Chip - A piece is missing. Usually on an edge.
Repaired - A nick, pin-hole or blem that has been touched up with repair paint.
Items listed in the store as minor flaw are truly minor. These flaws may not even be noticeable in conditions of dim light or greater than 3 - 4 feet distance.
is "resin composite"?
A: These lids are new from current production different from the original porcelain lids which are used and salvaged. They are a high-gloss surface like cultured marble bathroom counters. The material is a composition of marble, stone and bauxite dust joined by resin during the casting process. The design of these lids may differ slightly compared to the original, but the shape, size and fit are identical. Our resin composite lids offer a lower price/cost than original porcelain and are a suitable substitute when original porcelain is not available or when lowest cost is a concern. These lids are available for limited brands and models in white only and are listed beneath the respective original porcelain item and are distinguished with the text resin composite.
Q: Do you remove old paint from the lid before you send it ?
A: Yes. We have three special tools at our detailing bench for this. We know how to remove all the old paint without damaging the surface glaze on your lid.
is the "Celite" (Cell-e-tay) brand?
A: Celite is a South American manufacturing plant which has supplied component parts over the years to various American import brands such as St. Thomas Creations, Barclay Products Limited, Laufen (Burgess), and most recently Cheviot. Toilet bowls with the Celite logo on them were actually sold under another brand name.
brand is UPC?
A: UPC stands for Uniform Plumbing Code, a governing body by which plumbing fixture standards are set. It is not a brand. The UPC stamp merely means that your product meets the code.
A: There is a brand named Universal Rundle that is sometimes abbreviated "URC" for Universal Rundle Corporation. The lettering of the logo "URC" is overlapping, and "URC" might appear to say "UPC".
is the difference between a lid, a cover, and a top?
A: Nothing. Over the years various manufacturers have used each of the terms to describe the part. "Cover" seems to be the technically correct term. (Used by American Standard and Kohler.) "Lid" seems to be the more commonly used slang. ...Just as we say "toilet", when actually the technically correct term is "water closet". Lid, cover, and top can also refer to the upper portion of a toilet seat.
Q: Do you have pictures of the lids?
A: Yes, for models marked, "Request Photo via Email" in our stock list. Email us a request stating the brand and model you want to see. We will send you an email with a photo attached. These photos are generally of white lids and are for model identification only, not color identification.
Availability & Delivery:
long will it take for my lid to arrive?
A: From the day we receive your payment, it will take:
1 - 2 days to northern California and Reno Nevada
2 - 3 days to the other Pacific time zone
3 - 4 days to the Mountain time zone
4 - 5 days to the Central time zone
5 - 6 days to the Eastern time zone
Days are working/business days. Add for weekends and holidays. (For items marked *, allow 1 - 2 weeks.)
you rush my delivery if I pay extra?
A: Yes. Below are the additional charges for rush delivery. Our prices already include standard ground delivery. The amounts below are in addition. Purchase your item AND purchase a rush delivery below as an additional order.
|Rush, One Day Delivery Time, by 5:00 PM||$129|
|Rush, Two Day Delivery Time||$74|
|Rush, Two Day Delivery Time for Alaska or Hawaii. (Includes UPS $10.00 fuel surcharge.)||$80|
|Rush, Three Day Delivery Time||$58|
A: In the Pacific Time Zone there is no advantage in purchasing rush delivery since the normal delivery time is two days. Note: The day we ship is day zero. We ship the day after your payment arrives. (Sometimes we ship the same day.)
Q: Will the driver leave the package if there is no one home?
A: Maybe. This is the driver's discretion. If the driver deems it safe, they might leave it without signature. Generally this would be detached single-family residences. Apartments and condos will probably require some one present to receive the package.
can I check on my delivery?
A: If we have your email address (online orders), you will automatically receive a notification from UPS the day your shipment leaves. It will include your tracking number and an estimated arrival date. You can enter that number at the UPS web site tracking service and it will tell you the status and progress of your delivery. You can also e-mail to ask for your tracking number.
Q: Can I pick up the lid and get a discount for no shipping?
A: No. We are a warehouse and an office, not a store. We are not staffed for will calls or on-site payments and there may be times when no one is in the office. You can order online and specify "Will Call" in the message box and we will tell you when the package is ready and you can pick it up from a secure area near our front door 24 hours a day.
Q: What are your hours?
A: Gary, our toilet expert, is available Monday - Saturday 8 - 5 (Pacific Standard Time) via email and telephone. Website ordering is open 24 hours, seven days a week, 365 days per year. Packing and billing operates seven days a week. Shipments depart Monday through Friday except for holidays. The internal tank repair parts department is available Monday - Friday 8 - 5 (Eastern Standard Time) via email and telephone, 516-922-7329. We operate offices and warehouses, there is no public store.
the lid get broken in shipping?
A: We've shipped lids all over the United States and Canada since 2000. Through 2005 only a few got broken, and in each case UPS paid our claim. In March 2006 we upgraded our packaging to an inner-and-outer box system per UPS's suggestion and guidelines. Since then our breakage percentage has been .2% or 2/10s of 1%.
A: We have toured a large metropolitan UPS shipping hub. We know first-hand what the cartons must endure. (It's the conveyor belts too, not just the humans.) A northern California District UPS Damage Coordinator has been to our facility and approved our carton burst rating and our packaging materials and method. We do not use Fragile stickers because the handlers just laugh and the conveyor belts can't read. One of Gary's mottos says, "There's right, there's wrong, and there's the way it is!" ...We pack for a rough ride.
Q: Do you insure the shipment ?
A: Yes. UPS automatically provides insurance up to $100.00 We purchase additional insurance for items over $100.00.
Q: The item I need is marked "Sold Out". When will you get more?
A: Lids arrive every week. But we don't know what we will get or when we will get it. The lids come from salvage, not current manufacturing. Hence we have no control for getting certain models. Upon your request, we will keep you in our Wait List for two years. E-mail us and include your phone number. A customer commented in 2007, "Thanks Gary, we've since gutted the bathroom and started over it's done and the new units are white, thanks for getting back to me 3 years later...You know what they say "Better late than never" I will tell all my friends though..."
Q: If the item I need is not listed, should I call you to see if you have it?
A: No. If the item is not listed then we don't have it.
I buy a new tank with a lid at the store and put it on my old bowl?
A: No, generally not. The tank at the store may not be the same brand and/or model. The connecting bolts and sealing gasket may not match up. Your older toilet bowl may be of the 3.5 GPF (gallons-per-flush) vintage and the new tanks deliver only 1.6 gallons-per-flush. If you were able to connect a new tank, the old bowl may not function (flush) properly with it. ...You're just asking for trouble. "Daddy, how come something came back after I flushed the toilet?" (1994 = 1.6 GPF; 1982 = 3.5 GPF; 1970's = 5 GPF; older than that = 7 GPF.)
Q: You have the brand and model I need, but not the color. Can I paint it ?
A: Maybe. We have seen a few painted lids that seem to have held up well. But the gloss of typical paint will never be the same as porcelain. You might consider a bathtub & sink refinishing service (Bathtubs in the Yellow Pages) though the minimum charge to mix a color is $150.00.
toilet tank is cracked. Can I glue it or seal it?
A: No, this is a dangerous idea. Once a crack has emerged, the tank or entire toilet should be replaced as soon as possible. A crack, even if repaired, may get bigger and in some cases the tank may break apart. In this event, the fill-valve will think the tank is empty and it will stay on and water will run continuously in your house causing a flood and serious water damage. If your tank is cracked, we recommend that you shut off the water supply valve to the toilet right now. Visit our Toilet Tanks department for old, obsolete, discontinued, no longer manufactured, salvaged toilet tanks.
A: There are porcelain repair products on the market, but they should only be used for cosmetic areas such as the lid or exterior of a bowl. These products may not provide structural strength.
Q: Do you sell the inside working parts for the tank?
A: They are available through another office which we are allied with. Visit our Internal Parts page to find contact information.
Q: Do you have toilet seats for the American Standard Vent-Away style toilets?
A: Yes. Please contact us for information, pricing and availability.
you get salvaged toilet tanks also?
A: Yes. We have 100 salvaged tanks in stock. Visit our Toilet Tanks page.
you get salvaged toilet bowls also?
A: We do not carry them but can put you on our Wait List. Toilet Bowls page.
toilet seats still available for old, discontinued toilet colors?
A: Yes. We can supply new, durable plastic seats in 95 colors to match 13 toilet manufacturers. Go to our Toilet Seats page for information.
you get toilet seats for the old Kohler Rochelle (K-3385EB) one-piece
A: Yes. We can order new enameled wood replacement seats in white and many colors. We also have some colors in original plastic model #K-4675. Go to our Rochelle Seat Department for information.
you get toilet seats for the old Case one-piece
A: Yes. We have new replacement seats in white for the Case #1000 round-front and #1100 elongated. Go to our Case Seat Department for information. These seats are no longer made in colors.
Q: Are seats available for Crane Criterion
A: No. They are no longer produced, we don't have any, we can't get any, we don't know where any are. (If you find some, please tell us where.)
you have toilet seats for the Eljer Emblem
A: Yes, we have white and many colors. Go to our Emblem Seat Department for information.
Q: Are toilet seats available for the Kohler Champlain (K-3390EB)?
A: We have white and many colors. Go to Kohler Champlain page.
Q: Can you get toilet seats for the Jacob Delafon Fleur toilet?
A: Yes, go to our Jacob Delafon Department for information.
you have colored bolt cover caps for the screws where the toilet bowl
attaches to the floor ?
A: Yes, we stock plastic bolt caps in many colors. They are $3.00 per pair plus $3.00 packing and shipping plus $11.00 processing fee equals $17.00. You might be able to get them cheaper elsewhere. For white just go to the hardware store. We also have a small collection of original, salvaged porcelain bolt caps. Visit our Bolt Caps Department.
you have the Japanese style lid which incorporates a small sink and
A: No. These are not really add-on toilet tank lids. They are complete toilets which incorporate a lid/sink/faucet setup. The lid is fitted to match the tank and the fill valve water line is adapted to the faucet. In other words, it is a complete system and there is no universal lid/part that can added to the top of your existing toilet. The Japanese arrangement does not meet American plumbing sanitation codes and hence no manufacturer markets them here.
A: There are some plastic add-on models appearing on the web. But again, they do not meet American plumbing sanitation codes and hence we choose not to sell them.
How can I know that you are a trustworthy merchant?
A: Several ways - We are a member of the Los Altos Chamber of Commerce and we are accredited by the Better Business Bureau (A+rating) and we are a Pay Pal Verified Seller since 2003. Click the link to view our certification. (Pay Pal login required.) We've been featured in the San Jose Mercury News and Angie's List Magazine. ...We're for-real! ( We were formerly Tjader Sales, a kitchen, bath and plumbing Manufacturer's Representative serving northern California and western Nevada from 1989 to 2010.)
What is your return policy?
A: A lid can be returned within one week of arrival. Upon arrival of the lid back to us undamaged, a refund or exchange will be issued less a handling fee of up to $36.00.
A tank can be returned within one week of arrival. Upon arrival of the tank back to us undamaged, a refund will be issued less a handling fee of up to $70.00.
Call 650-483-1139 for a Return Authorization number. The return shipment must be in the original carton with original packing secured for safe transit and insured if over $100.00. Shipment must be sent freight prepaid.
Other items not detailed here are subject to restocking and handling fees depending on circumstances. Contact us for details.
Clearance Center toilet seats, toilet bolt caps, and color charts are not returnable.
Cancellation Policy: If an order has not been packed the cancellation/transaction fee is $1.00. If an order has been packed but not shipped there is a cancellation and refund fee of $22.00 for tank lids and $33.00 for tanks. If an order has been shipped but not delivered, that constitutes a return (see above), not a cancellation.
Refund Policy: Refunds for returned items are are subject to safe arrival back to us, and inspection for original condition.
100% restocking charge on unauthorized returns.
Return shipping costs are the responsibility of the sender. Outbound shipping costs are not refundable.
Processing RGAs, returns, credits and refunds is like driving in reverse - it's harder and slower. Please allow 30 - 45 days for refund to post.
Q: What is your cancellation policy?
A: If an order has not been packed there is no cancellation fee. If an order has been packed but not shipped there is an $20.00 cancellation and refund fee. If an order has been shipped but not delivered that constitutes a return, not a cancellation. (See above.)
Do you buy lids?
A: Yes. Currently we are paying $20.00 for white and $30.00 for colored lids marked Sold Out on our Stock Pages if they are delivered to our office in Los Altos California. The lids must have no nicks, chips, cracks or scratches and must arrive undamaged. Phone 650-224-6474 before delivering.
A: We will pick up lids at any San Francisco Bay Area plumbing contractor or wholesaler location. Though nothing is paid for lids we pick up, there is no charge for the travel and labor to remove them. We have removed as many as 300 lids from one location.
I have an old toilet to dump. Where can I take it?
A: Contact your garbage company. They will refer you to approved toilet disposal locations. If you are in Santa Clara, San Mateo, or Alameda counties in California, click this link to find a toilet disposal pick-up service: www.ToiletSalvage.com
Q: How did you get into this business?
A: Gary was born into a family-owned wholesale plumbing supply business in the 1950's and was a manufacturer's representative for luxury kitchen, bath and plumbing products for 25 years. From 1997 through 2000 Gary was a volunteer advisor on two internet plumbing advice web sites. A recurring question was, "Where can I find a tank lid for my old toilet?" ...Some people were downright desperate: "PLEASE. Help me! Where can I find a tank lid?" One day in 1999 Gary took a chance and answered, "I'll find you your lid for $100.00." (...And then thought, "How am I gonna do that?") They said, "Fine, how long will it take?" The lid was procured, the payment was made, the business was born. "Find a need an fill it.", Ruth Stafford Peale.
Q: How did you end up being an article in the newspaper?
A: An editor at the San Jose Mercury News saw our website when he needed to replace a toilet tank lid broken by one of his children. He thought it might be an interesting subject and suggested it to a columnist.
~ It is estimated by Fluidmaster that there are 250 million toilets installed in private households in America. This does not include public facilities, offices, hotels, stadiums, schools, dormitories, resorts, etc.
~ Gallons-per-flush over the years: 1920s to 1950s 7 GPF ~ 1960's & 1970s 5 GPF ~ 1982 3.5 GPF ~ 1994 1.6 GPF.
~ California governor Arnold Schwarzeneger signed legislation to implement 1.28 GPF high-efficency toilets (HETs) in California beginning in 2010. (An Article)
~ Do not flush prescription drugs down the toilet. (Per the Santa Clara County Department of Environmental Health.) Although this was a policy used in the past, new evidence and studies show that prescription drugs are not being completely filtered out when passing through sewer treatment plants. Damage to marine wildlife and plant life is an end product of this. (Oh Heavens! The sharks are on Viagra and the salmon are on Prozac.) Please bring any old prescription drugs or medication to your local Household Hazardous Waste Program to be safely disposed of. (An Article) (...Another Article)
~ To avoid clogging your toilet or waste pipes, follow this advice, "If you didn't eat it first, don't put it in the toilet!"
~ If your toilet does become clogged, try adding a few squirts of liquid dish washing soap to the bowl. Let sit ten minutes. Then apply toilet plunger. The dish washing soap will greatly increase your odds of success.
~ The threads on the nuts holding toilet tank trip levers (aka flush handles), are opposite of normal. That is, clock-wise to loosen, counter-clock-wise to tighten.
~ If you replace your entire toilet, check with your water company to see if they offer Ultra Low Flush rebates.
~ Remove stains and mineral buildup from your toilet with a pumice scouring bar. (DO NOT use on the toilet seat!) Pumice is a natural volcanic material used for cleaning purposes since ancient times. In addition to cleaning toilets, it can be used on enameled iron or porcelain steel sinks and tubs. (DO NOT use on acrylic or gel-coat tubs.) Works on ceramic tile too. We use it at our detailing bench to remove rust stains and paint marks. Commonly sold at hardware stores, grocery stores and home centers. Also available online below.
|Our price is your cost. No surprise shipping charges or processing fees added at check-out.|
|Pumice Scouring Bar: 6" X 1-1/4" X 3/4", 2.8 ounces.||$6|
E-mail: Gary@Tjader.com ~ Phone: 650-483-1139 PST